In this episode, NAWL member, General Counsel, and Corporate Secretary for the Erikson Institute and General Counsel for the Chicago History Museum, Maria Di Lorenzo, speaks with Anat Maytal, Senior Associate at Baker & Hostetler LLP, Ambassador of World Wide Hearing, and a member of the ABA's Commission on Disability Rights. Maria and Anat discuss how Anat has navigated and found success as a deaf lawyer and single mom by choice in the legal profession.
In this episode, NAWL member, General Counsel, and Corporate Secretary for the Erikson Institute and General Counsel for the Chicago History Museum, Maria Di Lorenzo, speaks with Anat Maytal, Senior Associate at Baker & Hostetler LLP, Ambassador of World Wide Hearing, and a member of the ABA's Commission on Disability Rights. Maria and Anat discuss how Anat has navigated and found success as a deaf lawyer and single mom by choice in the legal profession.
To find more information about the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association visit here: www.deafbar.org
Hello. Welcome back to the NAWL podcast conversations to help you thrive in the legal profession.
Welcome back to the National Association of Women Lawyers podcast. My name is Maria Di Lorenzo. I'm the general counsel and corporate secretary at Erikson Institute and also the general counsel at the Chicago History Museum. I'm a proud NAWL member and also serve on the podcast committee and the Annual Meeting Host Committee. I'm delighted to host today's podcast, a conversation with Anat Maytal, who will speak to us about her unique path and how she has found success as an attorney, a member of the hard of hearing community, and as a mom. And not welcome. And thank you for joining us today.
Thank you for having me.
Briefly and not a bit about your background. I know you attended Harvard for undergraduate and Boston University for law school, and you're currently an attorney in private practice handling complex commercial litigation at Baker Hostetler. Um, you've received numerous awards as an attorney on the rise, and you are a member of the hard of hearing community. Um, you also co-founded the deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association. What many may not have known, at least until now, is that you are not only a mom, but you're a single mom by choice and not your. Your path is very unique in the way that you have found success, both in your career and your family life. And for so many of us, you are a real life shero. So tell us a bit about your background and not in specifically your path to becoming an attorney.
Sure. So I decided to become an attorney because I was, like many people, passionate about the law in terms of shaping it and interpreting in ways that would help those in need. And as much as I didn't realize it at first, I realized I quickly came around to understanding that growing up with a hearing disability. Um, to be clear, I have a severe to profound hearing loss. Since I was eight months old, I lost my hearing to biometrics, and since then I've had, um, I've been wearing hearing aids. And, um, about ten years ago, I got the cochlear implant in my right ear. And soon I'm getting the cochlear implant in my left ear. And I primarily communicate verbally. And, um, so I've had to grow up, you know, constantly advocating for myself because many people in the hearing world have assumed negative stereotypes about the deaf community. They assume if you're deaf, you can't interact with others in the hearing world. And if you can't interact, then clearly you can't be mainstream and regular school classrooms. And if you're not mainstream regular classroom, then you can't perform as well as students without the hearing disability. And it just goes on and on. The pervasiveness of these stereotypes and assumptions have shaped my experience growing up, being a student and then navigating from school and life, so I'm not surprised, looking back, that I picked a profession where I'm allowed to argue for a living. Since my entire life, I've had to argue and stand up for myself.
So advocacy was part of your core being from a from a very young age, it sounds like. Tell us, anon, what have been some of the challenges and some of the rewards and some of the things that have surprised you as you have advanced in the legal profession?
Chair. So in the beginning of my law career as someone with a hearing disability, I was very hesitant to disclose it. Um, I was didn't want to use any assistive devices in the office or in court. I just didn't like a drawing attention to myself. Um, and I feared people would jump to unfair conclusions about my abilities. But I realized that in order to be a better advocate for others, I have to be my strongest advocate. And so I pushed through in the courtroom, at least pre-pandemic, I, um, I provided judges and witnesses with an FM microphone system that broadcasts directly to my hearing aids. And in federal courts, the court reporters are connected to a wireless system and similar, where you know, where you see the court reporter typing, that allows us to wirelessly see the transcription on my computer screen. So, um, I mean, overall, I've had very pleasant experiences, actually, you know, of course, and most courts are very accommodating. Um, and judges are willing to wear the microphones if they don't want to wear the, uh, at least amendable for putting it on the bench so I can use it. But I've had some difficult experiences. I've sat in depositions where attorneys have accused me of faking my disability so that I could, um, make them repeat questions or disrupt their flow as they argued. Um, one instance I can remember, it got so bad that. I actually took out my hearing aid devices and asked him, would I really be faking this? And we I said, let's bring the judge in, because, you know, judges love to deal with, um, um, disputes over nonsense like this. Um, so he backed away very quickly. But it's interesting like that. That has been very frustrating. I've had opposing counsel try to take advantage of my hearing disability by not looking at me when they're speaking to the judge or to anyone relevant, you know, mediations, the um, or arbitrator. Um, they try to cover their mouth to make it harder for me, or just to make it just throw their hands up and try to create a challenge over nothing. Um, so. It, really? I mean, I feel like I feel like people think they can take a they see it's just like anything else, you know, I'm a woman. I'm young. They're trying to undermine you in any way possible. Um, I've had opposing counsel when I went to court saying to me, Wendy, wait, what year did you graduate or did you pass the bar? And luckily, I have the wits to respond and be like, well, did you pass the bar? Um, so there are a lot of different challenges that comes up in my career, whether it's my hearing disability, which is the prime one, or, you know, because I'm a woman or, you know, I, I joke, I'm young, I'm 40, so I am young, youngish. So, um, but to be a female and youngish woman and I work in litigation where women are outnumbered by men. And on top of that, to have a disability. It's definitely been challenging. But I will say it's not a challenge that I'm afraid to handle because as you said, um, advocacy has been a core of who I am, and I like what I do as litigation. And, um, I'm not going to let anything stop me.
So it sounds like the themes of perseverance and resilience are evident throughout what you've been describing. The need to push forward.
Absolutely.
Tell us about, um, some of the, uh, learnings that you experienced through Covid and all of the, um, all of the changes that, you know, really everyone but especially attorneys had to adapt to. And how did that impact your practice and your life?
Absolutely. So when the pandemic happened, initially, I was very concerned. I think everyone was concerned. But, um, as someone with a disability, I did not know yet what that would look like, how would I litigate in a pandemic? But it actually proven to be incredible way to level the playing field, because a lot of accommodation requests that people like myself with a disability had previously requested and got rejected, were suddenly being offered to everyone. You know, I have colleagues who have, um, disabilities where they just can't commute to the office every day and they couldn't get their accommodation to work remotely, but suddenly everyone's working remotely. Um, so for me personally, for example, I can tell you, as someone with a hearing disability, any time I walk into a conference room, um, whether it's a regular meeting, a mediation and arbitration, or if I'm walking into court, there are like 20 steps I'm thinking in advance before I even walk in. Um, what is the setup going to be like? Um, are the lights are going to be on? Who's the speaker? Uh, who are the speakers going to be where they're going to be sitting? How am I going to sit so I can see that speaker the best? Um, and am I bringing a microphone system? Do I need a microphone system in the courtroom? Do I did I call the clerk's office? Um, the the judge's chambers to make sure I have permission to bring in my electronic device so that they can wear the microphone or to request the the real time captioning that I mentioned earlier. Um, but when the pandemic hit, everything went online to video platforms like zoom, Microsoft Teams, and suddenly everything that I had to think about in advance, I didn't have to think about anymore. Because when you're on the video platform, everyone has to speak one at a time because you know, otherwise you're not going be able to hear each other and voices overlap. So it took away that issue that you see in real life. No background noise like court courtrooms are loud and a lot of echoes. Um, there was, um, automatic captioning is not perfect, but it was there for me. And as someone who is hard of hearing, I not only do I just rely on my hearing aids or microphone system or captions, I also look at people's faces I need to lip read. That's why I mentioned earlier that when people cover their mouth, it's a challenge to me. So it's like a way to hurt me or try to hurt me. And I can see everyone on screen when you're on video. So it actually made things a lot easier for me to be on the same level as my colleagues. Um, so that has really been enlightening and, you know, as a way to really help people.
So an interesting, um, I guess a silver lining, you might say, from the whole Covid epidemic is the, uh, some of the benefits of the remote practice for folks who are deaf or hard of hearing.
Absolutely. And I can tell you that even though these accommodations that I mentioned are have been beneficial for people with disabilities like myself, I've heard from my colleagues who are not disabled, um, that they like these accommodations that they like. Um, I've had attorneys approach me, whether during the pandemic or pre-pandemic, when they saw that I had captioning in the courtroom, I've been approached and asked, what is that? How does that work? And I'm going to request that in my next trial so that I can follow along what the witnesses have to say. Um, so there are benefits that were initially that may have been initially catered to people who are disabled that actually could benefit everyone who works in this field.
Interesting. Interesting. And not. You are a co-founder of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association. Can you tell us a bit about this nonprofit and how it came to be that you co-founded the organization?
Absolutely. So I co-founded the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association back in 2014. Um, as a nonprofit, we help legal professionals with hearing disabilities, you know, whether they're born with a disability or latent depth, um, to connect and support one another. And how this idea came about when I was in college, you know, the idea of a lawyer being a lawyer was always in the back of my mind, but I didn't have any representation of lawyers who were deaf or hearing deaf or hard of hearing. And to discover whether and how people with hearing disability could practice law. I contacted the American Bar Association or other nonprofit and dug through. You know, we didn't have, um, I mean, Facebook was just a baby back then. Um, we didn't. So I had to look through, um, like online messaging boards, like Yahoo or, and try to find attorneys with the same disability. But the process could have been so much easier. And, you know, I thought there had to be a better way. And today there is one. And the deaf bar has a website. We have a Facebook page, we have a listserv where law school students and legal professionals with hearing disability can find resources, can make personal connections. We have done webinars, we have done, uh, programing. Um, and one of the major things we had to try to do is how do we get more people to know who we are and that, you know, this is the great resource that's out there, because obviously we are stronger. And if we have more numbers and more people, we can, um, connect with. So, um, we got we I decided to help organize the largest number of deaf and hard of hearing attorneys to be sworn in to the Supreme Court bar in Washington, D.C., before the Supreme Court. And that created, um, that generated a lot of media attention, because while the court gladly and easily allowed for sign language interpreters to be present for the swearing in, you know, you have to do motion. And then they have all arguments for whatever cases are before the Supreme Court. They don't allow electronic devices. They wouldn't allow any real time captioning. Um, so it took some negotiating, um, to allow that because not everyone who's deaf and hard of hearing rely on sign language primarily and need they need the captioning as well. And so they set up for us a restricted Wi-Fi network so we can. That allowed us to ask that the court reporter transcription of the proceeding live on our smartphone or smart devices like the iPad. The Supreme Court has never allowed phones or any kind of smart devices into the courtroom before, so that's why we got a lot of attention. That's why I generated. But it was to our benefit. And, you know, after that event, the swearing in, we got so much feedback. I had attorneys reaching out to me saying I never knew such an organization exists. I had students saying, I didn't even know this was an option for me. And that alone has been really rewarding because that's where I really wanted this organization to be available to people.
And you found it. It was it back in 20. 2014.
2014. And it's still still going strong.
Yes, we have over 200 members.
And I think some of the most powerful aspects of the deaf and hard of hearing bar association is both the job support and also the the technology support.
Yeah.
So we have people reaching out saying I need accommodation. Um, how do I go about requesting it in my law school or in my workplace? Um, we have questions that come up about how do I disclose my disability during the interview process or once I get to my new job, what accommodation can I request? And, um, how do and how to navigate that? And it's been really helpful to hear from people, what have they done in their practice and to get guidance on what to do going forward.
Absolutely. And with technology so quickly changing and sometimes it is very complex, just you describing all of the steps you go through to get the judge to wear the microphone and these kind of things. Um, it's it's very important that we're all sharing information and best practices and the latest technology to, to stay current.
Absolutely. And, um, and to be honest, you know, we have to and to be forthcoming about, you know, this is hard. You know, some judges are going to push back and this is the judge. So giving people a heads up and how to navigate those difficult situations. And, you know, not everything's going to be easy peasy. Um, but just knowing there are people there to hold your hand during the way and how to get things done so that you can be the excellent attorney in whatever field you practice, um, really helps.
Yes, yes.
To to enable everyone to fulfill their, their potential or live up to their potential.
Exactly.
So not shifting gears a bit, in addition to your full time legal practice, you are a single mom by choice. I'm curious, how did you arrive at this decision, and can you describe your experience as a working professional and as a single mom?
So I knew I wanted to have kids, preferably through pregnancy, and I knew that time, plus my declining fertility were factors I had to consider. And as I got closer to the age of 35 and found myself still single, I decided I didn't want to lose my chance of being a mom. I could find a partner, a husband any day, um, any age. But that wasn't true for getting pregnant. And, um, so I decided to dive in into this process, and I worked with, um, my doctors at Columbia University here in New York, and it was not an easy process. Um, the road to becoming a mom, a mother is not one that's freshly paved. There are lots of bumps and cracks and twists and turns that 1st May have not imagined. But, you know, I've had so many every appointment, every test, every scan, every needle, every procedure, and tear drops were all worth it. I started this process over five years ago, um, and finally through IVF. I now have two beautiful children. There are eight, four and two now and I can tell you the best and the hardest parts are actually the same because now I'm a mom. I get to make all the decisions by myself. I choose the schools. I choose the education, pediatrician traditions, what religion they've been raised with. Um, it's all I get to decide what they want to wear. And, um, I mean, obviously up to a point they will have their own opinion. Um, but the hard part is that I get I'm doing it all on my own. And sometimes you want to run things by someone who's just invested you. Sometimes you want a partner you can rely on when you have to work late or deal with time sensitive fire drills, especially as an attorney. Um, but thankfully, I do have a small village to help. It really does take a village. My immediate family is incredible and help with the can, especially my parents who are just invested in helping me succeed both professionally and as a single mom of two during the week or weekend when I need to work. I also have two wonderful older brothers who are incredible uncles, and while the kids do go to preschool, I do have a part time babysitter to help with afternoon pickups. And so I'm not alone. And my children feel incredibly loved and cared for at all times. And I will say it does help to work for an employer. That understanding that we have lives outside our offices and work, and I'm able to split my time working from the office or working remotely thanks to the, in part thanks to the pandemic normalizing more remote schedules. Um, I'm officially in the office three days a week, two days a week. I work from home, and even then I there's flexibility. If I have obligations, um, if I have to step away. And, um, but that said, when I'm with my kids, when they're home from school until they go to sleep, I'm with them. Um, the phones are down, but I will log back on to work so I can just address all outstanding items after they go to sleep. And, you know, so I can make sure my caseload is still being handled smoothly and efficiently. It's a lot of hours and a lot of work on both fronts, but I feel so much more fulfilled. Like my life has more meaning now. Um, I do everything not just to be successful in my career, but to raise two happy, healthy, kind children than I did before. You know, I started this road to motherhood and I've been 100% worth it.
Well, that's that's.
Inspiring that you're able to hold that all together and and do it so well. So kudos to you. Um, and what are some of the the misconceptions or misunderstandings people may have about you?
Well, I am. I mentioned earlier now, especially in my dealings with um, other attorneys, opposing counsel and judges. You know, um, people think you have a disability. That is a weakness. They think, oh, she had a hearing impairment. Oh, let me attack that. Or, um, let me try to undermine her case by using a hearing against her. And it's so not necessary. I mean, just win your case. Just win your case on the merits and not this, you know, sneaky way. And, um, and I mentioned earlier that there was one case recently where the attorneys challenged my disability being real. And if you think I'm faking that, why would I be wearing the devices? What benefit would I have to, you know, to faking something like this? And you just really have to stand up for yourself. And, um, and I think, you know, you talk about misconceptions. I think in terms of employers, um, I noticed and I noticed that, um, people who that employers need to make sure they understand that people with disabilities are incredible people and they, you know, whether they have a disability from birth or later, they are so valuable because, you know, we have been exposed to many more situations where we had to deal with obstacles. We have had to advocate for ourselves and find new solutions as a result. One thing that people with disabilities bring to the table is that we face, you know, we face so many challenges and overcome them by figuring out what kind of workarounds we get. We persevere. You know, in the legal field especially, you know, things are not going to go as planned. The opposing counsel is going to come with you with things that you may have not anticipated, and you have to think on your feet, and you have to know the normal way of doing things is not going to work. And for people in the disabled community thinks the regular way has never worked. So we had always had to think, what's another way we can make this happen? What, you know, we think outside the box. So it's really important to have that voice. And um, and I think employers miss sight of that when, um, considering people to hire or work with people with who are disabled. And, um, so those are a big misconceptions. I think it's really important. I think that there is that being overlooked.
And have you ever experienced moments of doubt or, um, where, you know, especially being a litigator and it's it's, um, one of the toughest paths you can choose, I think, for an attorney ever. Do you ever have moments of doubt where you're rethinking things, and if so, how do you, you know, regroup and, and find that, um, strength just to just keep going and keep on, um, uh, finding solutions and, and work arounds in that determination to, to move forward.
Um, of course I have doubts. Um, I think like anyone else, I've had imposter syndrome. Um, and, you know, I just try to, you know, I hate to say to fake it until you make it, but I just keep going. Um, I don't let I don't let anyone see that, you know, I'm having a hard time or I'm being frustrated, but I will say I am not afraid to ask for help where I need it. Um, I feel like I've gotten far enough in my career that I know what needs to get done and how things need to get done, and so I just try to lean back on that and say, I know what I'm doing. This is the way we're going to do things. Um, so I just really try to take a deep breath and pause and attack the problem one step at a time, because it can get very overwhelming. And when you see all these obstacles in front of you and just try to attack it piecemeal as opposed to, you know, this is the huge mountain, how am I going to get there on the top and just feel like, no, I'm going to get through the first few steps and just keep going. And, you know, I'm fortunate that, like I mentioned, the deaf bar, I met incredible people through the deaf bar that I turn to, whether it's just to vent or whether to get there to be a sounding board for me. Funny to say, sounding board, but, um, because we're deaf, but, um, just to hear what's going on and to give that to give them, um, to give me feedback on what they think I could do, uh, has been really incredible, which is why I'm very happy to have the deaf bar, um, at my disposal, you know, as an incredible resource. Um, because it's really important to be able to connect with people who have been where you are and, um, who can understand where you are and can help you get where you need to go.
Yes it is.
It's an incredible resource. The deaf bar. And, um, I think you should be extremely proud of having founded that. And, um, it continues to be a resource for, for so many people. Um, and I really like what you said about breaking down, uh, a problem into smaller pieces and finding, you know, that way easier to navigate. I think that's great advice. So before we close, Anat, anything else you would like to share? Any final thoughts?
Well, I. I just hope you know that people know as as cliche as it sounds, nothing is impossible. I mean, the very word impossible spells I am possible. There is always a way to make what you think impossible possible, whether it's, you know, related to, you know, negative stereotypes about having a disability or whether it is, um, pursuing, um, an untraditional path to motherhood. Um, you know, I, I think we just get caught up in stereotypes or traditions and, um, I think I'm living proof that you don't have to write off, you know, you don't have to close doors to certain opportunities just because of your disability or, you know, you don't have to give up your dream to become a mother just because you know, you work 80 hour weeks in a law firm and you're never going to meet anyone. Um, um, so we really need to broaden our horizons. And, um, and especially someone with a disability, we really should try to think of the best of someone and what they're capable of doing instead of the worst. Um, when we see someone with a wheelchair, we shouldn't look at it in a negative. Um, I mean, I try to, like. We saw my trial, we saw someone in the wheelchair and said, how cool it is that he had the wheelchair that helped him get everywhere so he can go where he needs to go. And he doesn't need anyone to help him get to places. Um, so you know, this this is the fully capable person who just happened to be in the wheelchair. And, you know, my son loved cars and trucks, and he's like, I want a wheelchair. So it's like, it's all about perspective and how you look at things. And, um, so it's really important to be open minded. And I think, you know, I'm just personally I'm just as capable as any attorney. If not more so, given the obstacles I've had to overcome and just to get what everyone else has. And we have to keep that in mind.
You are incredible. Anat and I, on behalf of NAWL, I thank you for joining us today, and I thank you for spending time with me on the podcast.
Thank you for having me. It's been a privilege.
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